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Zecco.com » General Investing » New Investors » where should I start?
Last post 07-06-2009, 11:42 AM by ng8111. 38 replies.
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  •  07-03-2009, 11:26 AM 59864

    where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    I have been trading on wallstreetsurvivor now for a few months trying to get comfortable with trading. I really enjoyed it and did pretty good. Good enough to feel like I'm ready to start with some real money. Problem is in the game I started with 100 grand. Now that I set up a real account I only have a few hundred dollars to start off with. I'm just looking for some advice on how to start out with such a small amount, stocks, options or mutual funds?  Anyone have some recommendations for a rookie trader.  thanks
  •  07-03-2009, 1:13 PM 59866 in reply to 59864

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    alpaca:
    I have been trading on wallstreetsurvivor now for a few months trying to get comfortable with trading. I really enjoyed it and did pretty good. Good enough to feel like I'm ready to start with some real money. Problem is in the game I started with 100 grand. Now that I set up a real account I only have a few hundred dollars to start off with. I'm just looking for some advice on how to start out with such a small amount, stocks, options or mutual funds?  Anyone have some recommendations for a rookie trader.  thanks


    If your good at trading then use a leveraged ETF.
  •  07-03-2009, 4:01 PM 59869 in reply to 59866

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    Trader Jack:
    alpaca:
    I have been trading on wallstreetsurvivor now for a few months trying to get comfortable with trading. I really enjoyed it and did pretty good. Good enough to feel like I'm ready to start with some real money. Problem is in the game I started with 100 grand. Now that I set up a real account I only have a few hundred dollars to start off with. I'm just looking for some advice on how to start out with such a small amount, stocks, options or mutual funds?  Anyone have some recommendations for a rookie trader.  thanks


    If your good at trading then use a leveraged ETF.


    Alpaca, here's what you do. The leveraged ETF isn't a good idea. Instead, I'd go down to Scottrade and maybe buy a mutual fund (like the SWANX). Start setting aside a little money here and there and use an instrument such as a RothIRA; you can use a Roth as long as you have earned income. Maybe you set aside 50% for an emergency fund, 40% for the Roth, and 10% for trading. Once you have funded your E-Fund, make it 75% for the Roth and 25% for trading. Once you have reached 15-20% in the taxable account vs. the RothIRA, maybe you go to an 85% allocation to the RothIRA and a 15% allocation to the taxable account. You keep doing that little by little and you build yourself a little MadMoney account that you trade. You really don't care what happens to the MadMoney account but you take managed risks (i.e. using at least a 5-8 stock portfolio and making sure you have no more than 1 stock in any one sector). Having more than 20% in one sector is risky. When you gain significant experience, maybe you bring the RothIRA here (since you can buy broad-based ETFs) and consider buying stock options in your taxable account for trading. These can both be lucrative and costly both from the long and short side if mismanaged; that's why it's a good idea to invest for 3-5 years and practice a lot with options before engaging in options trading. While options trading can win, the leveraged ETFs are from the math a losing proposition. I like the idea of buying puts on them. The only option I think is excessively risky is the short call. I think it's a good idea to sell covered calls (when you own the underlying stock) but never to buy naked calls. I'd rather see you short the stock and get long the call; it only takes one bad trade to wipe out years of investment returns.

    Spreads become risky if you don't deposit the full potential loss. Put selling is okay if you make a full deposit equal to the amount of the stock going to $0 or the amount of the spread. I think the other risky things are to sell short without a long call and to buy stuff on margin. The reason why options require significant experience is you need to know how to 1) set limits and 2) use them to reduce rather than increase risk. Money management is essential to success. A lack of money management is a guarantee to failure especially in the realm of options. Careful calculation is inadequate, there.

    Aqua
  •  07-03-2009, 5:09 PM 59872 in reply to 59869

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    very good advice im in a similar position thanks for taking time to be so helpful
  •  07-03-2009, 6:18 PM 59874 in reply to 59872

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    makeitrain9:
    very good advice im in a similar position thanks for taking time to be so helpful


    No problem.
  •  07-03-2009, 7:09 PM 59878 in reply to 59874

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    SWANX tracks the SP500 closely.  Since we are in a bear market putting money into SWANX would not be a good decision.  Wait until the bear market is over then SWANX becomes a good passive choice.




  •  07-03-2009, 8:58 PM 59880 in reply to 59872

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    makeitrain9:
    very good advice im in a similar position thanks for taking time to be so helpful


    No problem. By the way, Trader believes he can "see" the market moves. I haven't known a person who could; even Warren Buffet struggled to see the market ahead. He loves to say "since we are in a bear market" even though we just rallied 20%. 1999-2009 was a secular bear market, but no one knows what 2009 to 2019 will be like.  Warren's long-term investment philosophy along with his entrepreneurial nature made him among the wealthiest in the world; he competes with Bill Gates constantly for that top spot.

    Trader's call that the market will drop 50% is as ridiculous as my 2013 hypothetical. More likely than not, the market will continue to move higher but the positioning will likely be in between mine and Trader's; it is my expectation that if this is true that we will be at 14,000 in 2013.

    When you invest in the market, such as thru the S&P 500, it isn't to "time" the market. Too many people try to time the market and they hurt their long-term prosperity in doing so.

    Bogle believes buying index funds is the best way to prosperity thru long-term investing over time. He believes in the Efficient Market Hypothesis and believes, in my opinion, that market timing is a frivolous strategy.

    Buffet on the other hand believes you should buy between 1-15 stocks and know those stocks extremely well. He believes you should only change them if you have a good reason to do so; he has stocks he has in his "forever" portfolio. I think the biggest mistake that Buffet made was when, he at a young age, sold a stock before it had a big run. He seemed to take that lesson to heart. Also, buying GS at $117 was a larger hit than usual because it fell another 60% till it hit the trough when he typically has his stocks go down about 30%. Buffet was more of a venture capitalist than a stock picker because of how he funded companies thru his stock purchases and helped believe in speculative ventures like Geico. Buffet's main inspiration was Ben Graham (a prolific value investor).

    Cramer  believes you should have between 5-10 stocks and that you should do an hour a week per stock. He has the fable, buy and homework, not buy and hold (so he takes a page from Buffet there). Unlike Buffet and Bogle, he is more of a trader, but he definitely leans towards the investment side rather than the trading side. He believes that when you get to 15+ stocks, it is like running your own mutual fund. He believes that you should have no more than 20% in one sector and even airs a segment called "Am I Diversified?" Cramer also implements a compromise between Bogle's and Buffet's strategy and is one I find very attractive. Cramer recommends in his Stay Mad for Life to have three portfolios. The first portfolio is a 401k and that is made up of employee matches (but not if the only way to get the match is to own the employer's stock). He actually endorses, I think, giving up the employee match if it means owning the employer's stock. The second portfolio is your retirement portfolio (i.e. the RothIRA) where you mostly own mutual funds. The third portfolio is the taxable or individual account; this account is your MadMoney portfolio where you trade a portfolio of 5-10 stocks. There is one exception: sometimes he endorses using REITs, preferred stocks, or energy trusts in a retirement account since the dividends are subject to ordinary income taxation but also believes that if you have a gain, you should sell even if it means giving up a capital gain, two days later, shall the fundamentals of a company change. He believes it is best to pay the tax man and keep the gain rather than risk losing it; that's why he's so much into buy and homework. Lastly, when Cramer worked at his hedge fund, it looked like he detested margin; he hated it. But it does look like he may have taken long & short positions while there. I have no clue as to whether he bought option contracts there, but he did buy options on the Gulf Oil takeover when he was in college. I believe that was 25 years ago. I think it was only a one time occurrence, 25 years ago, but I am not certain, either way.

    Good luck with your investing career. There's a lot to learn.

    Aqua
  •  07-03-2009, 10:20 PM 59893 in reply to 59880

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    Keep up the great work! You are on the right track. Trader is in good taste, but I lean towards being an investor rather than a trader and these product's cannot be an "investment" as it doesn't lead to long-term wealth.

    Good luck and best wishes with investing. I hope you learn a lot. By the way, even though "you have a lot to learn," once you have a basic understanding that wealth is created by paying yourself first little amounts over time is the way to get significant wealth, you will have mastered the art of investing. Not being a hog is also a great idea in investing and making prudent decisions is essential. It is important to minimize emotions in the investing process and to realize you will make mistakes.



    Aqua
  •  07-04-2009, 2:24 AM 59900 in reply to 59878

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote

    Trader Jack:
    SWANX tracks the SP500 closely.  Since we are in a bear market putting money into SWANX would not be a good decision.  Wait until the bear market is over then SWANX becomes a good passive choice.

    We are not in a bear market, we are in a new bull market.  Aquaswim pointed this out as well with the following quote: "By the way, Trader believes he can "see" the market moves. I haven't known a person who could; even Warren Buffet struggled to see the market ahead. He loves to say "since we are in a bear market" even though we just rallied 20%. "  The market began a new bull market on March 9th.  The S&P has risen over 31% since then, and held onto this substantial gain for a sustained period of time (approaching 4 months now).  This is what actually happened, not what you thought might happen.  Come join reality sometime. 

     

  •  07-04-2009, 2:37 AM 59901 in reply to 59900

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    We actually rallied 40% off of the 666.79 low on the SP500.  It has been a wild dead cat bounce but that is all it is....a dead cat bounce.

    As far as "seeing" the market, I'm not the one claiming to "see" several years out into the future as you claim.

    You are right about this rally not doing what I thought it would do.  Back in Feb-March, I claimed it may get as high as 1100 on the SP500.  We didn't reach it.  I was WRONG again.
  •  07-04-2009, 3:20 AM 59903 in reply to 59901

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote

    Trader Jack:
    We actually rallied 40% off of the 666.79 low on the SP500.  It has been a wild dead cat bounce but that is all it is....a dead cat bounce.

    As far as "seeing" the market, I'm not the one claiming to "see" several years out into the future as you claim.

    You are right about this rally not doing what I thought it would do.  Back in Feb-March, I claimed it may get as high as 1100 on the SP500.  We didn't reach it.  I was WRONG again.

    Where did you learn how to do percentages?  40% ? In what world?  The S&P sits at 896.42.  The (intraday) low in March 9th was 666.79.  896.42-666.79=229.63.   229.63 divided by 666.79 equals 34.44381289, or 34% rounded to the next whole number.  This isn't 40%, math whiz.   But it is alot closer to 31%, in fact it is 31.17% if you use where the S&P closed on March 9th.  Remember that I said  "The S&P has risen over 31% since then (March 9th)".   That makes my statement correct, and yours wrong. 

    I didn't claim that you "see several years out into the future".  I didn't claim anything.  I simply repeated what Aqua posted.  Here is the important part of the quote (pay attention): "he can "see" the market moves".  The phrase "several years" wasn't in that quote. 

    Yea, you were wrong again.  You are wrong alot.  Remember when you said we "shouldn't have to wait until the 4th to see firworks" ? The next prediction you seem to on track to getting wrong is your target for the S&P at 300 to 400 over the next several months.

  •  07-04-2009, 3:35 AM 59905 in reply to 59903

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    VTECscreamer:

    Trader Jack:
    We actually rallied 40% off of the 666.79 low on the SP500.  It has been a wild dead cat bounce but that is all it is....a dead cat bounce.

    As far as "seeing" the market, I'm not the one claiming to "see" several years out into the future as you claim.

    You are right about this rally not doing what I thought it would do.  Back in Feb-March, I claimed it may get as high as 1100 on the SP500.  We didn't reach it.  I was WRONG again.

    Where did you learn how to do percentages?  40% ? What are you talking about.   The S&P sits at 896.42.  The (intraday) low in March 9th was 666.79.  896.42 minus 666.79 equals 229.63.   229.63 divided by 666.79 equals 34.44381289, or 34% rounded to the next whole number.  This isn't 40%, math whiz. 

    I didn't claim that you "see several years out into the future".  I didn't claim anything.  I simply repeated what Aqua posted.  Here is the important part of the quote (pay attention): "he can "see" the market moves".  The phrase "several years" wasn't in that quote. 

    Yea, you were wrong again.  You are wrong alot.  Remember when you said we "shouldn't have to wait until the 4th to see firworks" ? The next prediction you seem to on track to getting wrong is your target for the S&P at 300 to 400 over the next several months (73 days to go). 



    956 (peak in rally to date) - 666 (bottom to date) = 290

    290/666=.435 or 44%


    Your exact quote to me in a message "I am looking ahead years".   What does that mean?

    >200+ points down on the DOW on the 2nd and being unable to reach a new high since June 13 isn't fireworks?

    By the way, don't forget to wish me a happy birthday.  
  •  07-04-2009, 3:47 AM 59906 in reply to 59905

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    Trader Jack:
    VTECscreamer:

    Trader Jack:
    We actually rallied 40% off of the 666.79 low on the SP500.  It has been a wild dead cat bounce but that is all it is....a dead cat bounce.

    As far as "seeing" the market, I'm not the one claiming to "see" several years out into the future as you claim.

    You are right about this rally not doing what I thought it would do.  Back in Feb-March, I claimed it may get as high as 1100 on the SP500.  We didn't reach it.  I was WRONG again.

    Where did you learn how to do percentages?  40% ? What are you talking about.   The S&P sits at 896.42.  The (intraday) low in March 9th was 666.79.  896.42 minus 666.79 equals 229.63.   229.63 divided by 666.79 equals 34.44381289, or 34% rounded to the next whole number.  This isn't 40%, math whiz. 

    I didn't claim that you "see several years out into the future".  I didn't claim anything.  I simply repeated what Aqua posted.  Here is the important part of the quote (pay attention): "he can "see" the market moves".  The phrase "several years" wasn't in that quote. 

    Yea, you were wrong again.  You are wrong alot.  Remember when you said we "shouldn't have to wait until the 4th to see firworks" ? The next prediction you seem to on track to getting wrong is your target for the S&P at 300 to 400 over the next several months (73 days to go). 



    956 (peak in rally to date) - 666 (bottom to date) = 290

    290/666=.435 or 44%


    Your exact quote to me in a message "I am looking ahead years".   What does that mean?

    The 956 number didn't hold, I am counting where we were to where we are at now.  44% is still not the 40% you stated originally anyway.  Your response that included the 40% assertion was trying to correct what I had stated.  I was correct, the S&P is up over 31% since March 9th.  The S&P sits a level that is 31% higher than March 9th. 

    What is means is that investment strategy is focused in a time frame that is years from now.   I was trying to make the point that my time horizon is longer term, not shorter term.  Here is my entire quote: "I am looking ahead years, not months"  


    ">200+ points down on the DOW on the 2nd and being unable to reach a new high since June 13 isn't fireworks"  well, the DOW is a pretty insignificant market index for one.  And second, a move of 2 or 3% in the market is not fireworks, its pretty routine, we had a 2% move to the upside last week.  Not making a new high isn't "fireworks" either, it just means the aggresive upward momentum has slowed since June 13th. 

  •  07-04-2009, 4:07 AM 59907 in reply to 59906

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    VTECscreamer:
    Trader Jack:
    VTECscreamer:

    Trader Jack:
    We actually rallied 40% off of the 666.79 low on the SP500.  It has been a wild dead cat bounce but that is all it is....a dead cat bounce.

    As far as "seeing" the market, I'm not the one claiming to "see" several years out into the future as you claim.

    You are right about this rally not doing what I thought it would do.  Back in Feb-March, I claimed it may get as high as 1100 on the SP500.  We didn't reach it.  I was WRONG again.

    Where did you learn how to do percentages?  40% ? What are you talking about.   The S&P sits at 896.42.  The (intraday) low in March 9th was 666.79.  896.42 minus 666.79 equals 229.63.   229.63 divided by 666.79 equals 34.44381289, or 34% rounded to the next whole number.  This isn't 40%, math whiz. 

    I didn't claim that you "see several years out into the future".  I didn't claim anything.  I simply repeated what Aqua posted.  Here is the important part of the quote (pay attention): "he can "see" the market moves".  The phrase "several years" wasn't in that quote. 

    Yea, you were wrong again.  You are wrong alot.  Remember when you said we "shouldn't have to wait until the 4th to see firworks" ? The next prediction you seem to on track to getting wrong is your target for the S&P at 300 to 400 over the next several months (73 days to go). 



    956 (peak in rally to date) - 666 (bottom to date) = 290

    290/666=.435 or 44%


    Your exact quote to me in a message "I am looking ahead years".   What does that mean?

    The 956 number didn't hold, I am counting where we were to where we are at now.  44% is still not the 40% you stated originally anyway. 

    What is means is that investment strategy is focused in a time frame that is years from now.   I was trying to make the point that my time horizon is longer term, not shorter term.  Here is my entire quote: "I am looking ahead years, not months"  



    Sorry, I'm not able to "see" that far into the future to have a strategy like yours.
  •  07-04-2009, 4:14 AM 59908 in reply to 59907

    Re: where should I start?

    Reply Quote
    Trader Jack:
    VTECscreamer:
    Trader Jack:
    VTECscreamer:

    Trader Jack:
    We actually rallied 40% off of the 666.79 low on the SP500.  It has been a wild dead cat bounce but that is all it is....a dead cat bounce.

    As far as "seeing" the market, I'm not the one claiming to "see" several years out into the future as you claim.

    You are right about this rally not doing what I thought it would do.  Back in Feb-March, I claimed it may get as high as 1100 on the SP500.  We didn't reach it.  I was WRONG again.

    Where did you learn how to do percentages?  40% ? What are you talking about.   The S&P sits at 896.42.  The (intraday) low in March 9th was 666.79.  896.42 minus 666.79 equals 229.63.   229.63 divided by 666.79 equals 34.44381289, or 34% rounded to the next whole number.  This isn't 40%, math whiz. 

    I didn't claim that you "see several years out into the future".  I didn't claim anything.  I simply repeated what Aqua posted.  Here is the important part of the quote (pay attention): "he can "see" the market moves".  The phrase "several years" wasn't in that quote. 

    Yea, you were wrong again.  You are wrong alot.  Remember when you said we "shouldn't have to wait until the 4th to see firworks" ? The next prediction you seem to on track to getting wrong is your target for the S&P at 300 to 400 over the next several months (73 days to go). 



    956 (peak in rally to date) - 666 (bottom to date) = 290

    290/666=.435 or 44%


    Your exact quote to me in a message "I am looking ahead years".   What does that mean?

    The 956 number didn't hold, I am counting where we were to where we are at now.  44% is still not the 40% you stated originally anyway. 

    What is means is that investment strategy is focused in a time frame that is years from now.   I was trying to make the point that my time horizon is longer term, not shorter term.  Here is my entire quote: "I am looking ahead years, not months"  



    Sorry, I'm not able to "see" that far into the future to have a strategy like yours.

    What? That didn't make much sense.  I gather you were trying to use "see" in your response, but it was poorly thought out.   Neither the quote you used or my response contain the word "see" in it.  The quotation marks simply don't work. 

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