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Last post 07-03-2009, 10:23 PM by aquaswim47. 3 replies.
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  •  07-03-2009, 12:25 AM 59852

    new GM

    Reply Quote
    So. I've been waiting for GM to come out of bankruptcy and I saw today on the news that it might do this as early as next week. I have money I'm sitting on because of fear to move into the market and I think I want to put a lot of that money towards the new GM. I'm posting this because I want to know if I'm completely out of my mind or if that's a logical, reasonable decision. Also, how can I know whether it's a good decision because I won't have any financial information to base it on (since no history). Will there be an IPO?

    Terrible decision or not? - responses are very appreciated.
  •  07-03-2009, 1:21 PM 59867 in reply to 59852

    Re: new GM

    Reply Quote
    I can see the possibility of a surge but be careful.  Once the surge finishes then selling will follow and it could end up right back where it is now if not lower.  It would probably be better to let the surge occur and watch it to see where it finds support (if it finds support).  If it was me playing it....I would let the surge play out and short it on the way back down....safer play.  An even safer play would be not to mess with it at all because it will be very unpredictable.
  •  07-03-2009, 3:20 PM 59868 in reply to 59852

    Re: new GM

    Reply Quote
    Lets say, the stock gets out of the starting gate at $15 and rises to $25. I might sell an $15-18 put against it, collect the premium, and get long the stock. Selling a put is like a limit order to purchase the stock (but where you commit to that price). If it never gets below $18 (if you sell an $18 put), you collect the premium but don't get long the stock. If it falls to $12, you lost $600 on the deal less the premium received. It is exactly like having bought the stock at $18. By the way, I would buy an option spread (i.e. maybe a 18 sale and a 7.50 to $12.00 purchase) and deposit the money to cover the position; $1,050 is the necessary deposit for the $7.50 put and $600 is the necessary deposit for the $12 put. In order to sell puts directly, you need at least $50K and I bet a lot of people here don't have anywhere near that, I included.

    I think shorting the stock is too risky, but it makes sense in principle. You may want to buy a call option at $20 if the stock is at $15 to cap your losses at $500 plus the cost of the option contract. If it is $15 and zooms to $25 and you put the short on at $25, maybe you buy a $27.50 or $30 call to hedge against significant losses. Or, if the puts aren't that expensive, maybe you buy a put instead. Remember, with the call option contracts, you still have to pay the dividend for the short position but with the put contract, you don't need to pay the dividend (i.e. since you are not directly shorting the stock) so that needs to be calculated into the situation. For any I mention, you need a Level III clearance; with the short, you need a margin account so you might as well apply for a Level III rather than a Level II clearance. Any speculative option purchase requires a Level II clearance (i.e. buying calls or buying puts). The short put, at Zecco, requires a Level IV clearance. Personally, the put spread is a good idea because it allows you to limit losses.

    Best wishes. You really need to see what they settled on in the bankruptcy. GM is a good deal if they settled on between 23-27 cents on the dollar assuming 100% ownership. It all depends on how the contract is worded. If the union has 75% of the ownership, than you really want a debt level that is 6-7% of what it was prior to the bankruptcy in order to consider it a good deal. Anything more and they are very likely to fall right back into bankruptcy, this time a Chapter 7 liquidation.

    I really think GM hasn't streamlined their operations. I own 21 shares of Ford (F). I think the GM brand should have two primary brands: Chevy and Buick. Buick has a very large international business especially in China whereas Chevy is more of a low-end business (except for the Corvette). Since there isn't that intelligence, I really still like F, HMC, and TM better; F is actually the best buy. I think it is essential to have people who know how to run a company.

    Good deal = 27% * Percentage of Existing Business Model = Maximum Acceptable Debt Level

    So if the company kept 65% of its former operations, than the maximum you should accept for debt is .27 * .65 = 17.55%. If they kept 15% of their operations, than the maximum debt you should accept compared to the existing company is 4%. So if they had $200 billion of debt and $100 billion in assets, it would mean that they now have $15 billion in assets and $8 billion of debt. Remember some assets are illiquid so it won't sell for anywhere near 100 cents on the dollar, thus the importance of having a lot more assets than liabilities. If they trade at 1.5 times book, you are talking about a $10.5 billion company. If they have 700,000,000 shares, you have a company trading at $15 per share.

    The actual amount is $82.3 billion and the debt is $173.4 billion.

    So if you have 15% of the assets, you are coming up with $12.34 billion and 4% of the existing liabilities equals $6.94 billion or a company with a assets/debt ratio of 1.78. Always watch inventory, receivables, and intangible assets. These can become obsolete, become uncollectible, or deplete, respectively, in relatively short order and can cause a company significant difficulties. Also, be sure to make sure the company has more assets than liabilities. Lastly, make sure that a company's operating cash flows are in the right direction. All of these can doom a company. A company usually goes out of business when 1) it runs out of cash, 2) it cannot pay its burgeoning debt, 3) a company is consistently losing money, and 4) a company is a slow grower and the business becomes a non-entity. All four can result in a significant loss of principle. This doesn't include every situation that can cause a company to default on its obligations, but I try to give a couple ideas as to what to look out for and not be complacent. The most important thing is to remain diversified and to always seek out opportunities with reasonable risk and with an amount of capital that you can afford to lose both monetarily and emotionally. While owning 1/2% is nice, maybe owning 5% is too much. Moderation is key.



    Balance SheetGet Balance Sheet for:


    View: Annual Data | Quarterly DataAll numbers in thousands
    PERIOD ENDING31-Mar-0931-Dec-0830-Sep-0830-Jun-08
    Assets
    Current Assets
    Cash And Cash Equivalents11,448,000  14,053,000  16,007,000  19,554,000  
    Short Term Investments132,000  13,000  67,000  1,150,000  
    Net Receivables7,567,000  7,711,000  9,461,000  8,946,000  
    Inventory15,036,000  16,405,000  21,226,000  22,413,000  
    Other Current Assets2,593,000  3,142,000  3,511,000  3,576,000  
    Total Current Assets36,776,000  41,324,000  50,272,000  55,639,000  
    Long Term Investments2,447,000  2,860,000  4,573,000  214,000  
    Property Plant and Equipment38,000,000  41,877,000  45,048,000  47,842,000  
    Goodwill242,000   -  676,000  1,070,000  
    Intangible Assets -  265,000  273,000   -  
    Accumulated Amortization -   -   -   -  
    Other Assets4,736,000  4,623,000  8,676,000  30,267,000  
    Deferred Long Term Asset Charges89,000  98,000  907,000  1,014,000  
    Total Assets82,290,000  91,047,000  110,425,000  136,046,000  
    Liabilities
    Current Liabilities
    Accounts Payable55,242,000  24,827,000  61,798,000  67,470,000  
    Short/Current Long Term Debt25,556,000  18,472,000  7,208,000  8,008,000  
    Other Current Liabilities -  30,635,000   -   -  
    Total Current Liabilities80,798,000  73,934,000  69,006,000  75,478,000  
    Long Term Debt28,846,000  31,603,000  37,947,000  35,203,000  
    Other Liabilities63,166,000  69,027,000  62,466,000  80,959,000  
    Deferred Long Term Liability Charges -  1,823,000   -   -  
    Minority Interest622,000  814,000  945,000  1,376,000  
    Negative Goodwill -   -   -   -  
    Total Liabilities173,432,000  177,201,000  170,364,000  193,016,000  
    Stockholders' Equity
    Misc Stocks Options Warrants -   -   -   -  
    Redeemable Preferred Stock -   -   -   -  
    Preferred Stock -   -   -   -  
    Common Stock1,018,000  1,017,000  1,017,000  944,000  
    Retained Earnings(76,703,000)(70,610,000)(61,014,000)(58,470,000)
    Treasury Stock -   -   -   -  
    Capital Surplus16,489,000  15,755,000  15,732,000  15,335,000  
    Other Stockholder Equity(31,946,000)(32,316,000)(15,674,000)(14,779,000)
    Total Stockholder Equity(91,142,000)(86,154,000)(59,939,000)(56,970,000)
    Net Tangible Assets($91,384,000)($86,419,000)($60,888,000)($58,040,000)


    Aqua
  •  07-03-2009, 10:23 PM 59894 in reply to 59867

    Re: new GM

    Reply Quote
    Trader Jack:
    An even safer play would be not to mess with it at all because it will be very unpredictable.


    Amen, sometimes what is boring is also the most lucrative trade; by taking one side or the other, you may set yourself up for disappointment.

    Aqua
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