Zecco.com » General Investing » New Investors » SEC Pattern Day Trader Rules
Last post 03-28-2008, 8:03 PM by Virtruvius. 38 replies.
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  •  03-10-2008, 9:24 PM 24953 in reply to 24948

    Re: SEC Pattern Day Trader Rules

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    What if you have 2 accounts... and individual and a joint... Can you then use your 3 day trades in 1 acct, then 3 more in the other without getting tagged as PDT?  Assuming you have funds in both of course, and dont trade it all in 1 shot, (i.e. getting restricted by the unsettled cash waiting period). 
  •  03-11-2008, 3:33 PM 24989 in reply to 24953

    Re: SEC Pattern Day Trader Rules

    Reply Quote
    sorry maybe i'm just thick but....  if you have 25,000 + dollars in your account and you are labeled a pattern day trader, does it have any negative impact on you or your account to be labeled as such?

    so long as you stay above 25,000 dollars you can day trade all you want without any consequences right?

    so i could buy and sell a position in X stock 20 times in a day and nothing "bad" would happen to me.  (hopefully i'm gaining a few bucks each trade of course).

    one more question:
    same facts: lets say i have 25k + in my account and i am now labeled a pattern day trader.  2 months from now when i want to take half my account and buy something leaving me with less than 25k in my account.  will i still be a pattern day trader?  i.e. does this label stick with you even if you don't make ANY trades in 5 consecutive trading days.

    thanks in advance.

  •  03-26-2008, 11:47 AM 25755 in reply to 24989

    Re: SEC Pattern Day Trader Rules

    Reply Quote

    this is all very confusing about cash and margin accounts

    does PDT only apply to the same stock? so i could buy/sell GOOG, AAPL, RIMM, GRMN, MSFT etc all in one day and I wouldnt be flagged because een though i made 5 day trades, they are all in different securities

  •  03-26-2008, 12:18 PM 25761 in reply to 25755

    Re: SEC Pattern Day Trader Rules

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    FINRA (NASD) Rule 2520. Day Trading Margin Requirements: Day Trading

    (i)         The term “day trading” means the purchasing and selling or the selling and purchasing of the same security on the same day in a margin account except for:

    a.         a long security position held overnight and sold the next day prior to any new purchase of the same security, or

    b          a short security position held overnight and purchased the next day prior to any new sale of the same security.

    (ii)        The term “pattern day trader” means any customer who executes four or more day trades within five business days. However, if the number of day trades is 6% or less of total trades for the five business day period, the customer will not be considered a pattern day trader and the special requirements under paragraph (f)(8)(B)(iv) of this Rule will not apply. In the event that the organization at which a customer seeks to open an account or to resume day trading knows or has a reasonable basis to believe that the customer will engage in pattern day trading, then the special requirements under paragraph (f)(8)(B)(iv) of this Rule will apply.

    (iii)       The term “day trading buying power” means the equity in a customer’s account at the close of business of the previous day, less any maintenance margin requirement as prescribed in paragraph (c) of this Rule, multiplied by four for equity securities.

    Whenever day trading occurs in a customer's margin account the special maintenance margin required for the day trades in equity securities shall be 25% of the cost of all the day trades made during the day. For non-equity securities, the special maintenance margin shall be as required pursuant to the other provisions of this Rule. Alternatively, when two or more day trades occur on the same day in the same customer’s account, the margin required may be computed utilizing the highest (dollar amount) open position during that day. To utilize the highest open position computation method, a record showing the “time and tick” of each trade must be maintained to document the sequence in which each day trade was completed.

    (iv)       Special Requirements for Pattern Day Traders

    a.         Minimum Equity Requirement for a Pattern Day Trader - The minimum equity required for the accounts of customers deemed to be pattern day traders shall be $25,000. This minimum equity must be deposited in the account before such customer may continue day trading and must be maintained in the customer’s account at all times. 

    b.         Pattern day traders cannot trade in excess of their day-trading buying power as defined in paragraph (f)(8)(B)(iii) above. In the event a pattern day trader exceeds its day-trading buying power, which creates a special maintenance margin deficiency, the following actions will be taken by the member:

    1.         The account will be margined based on the cost of all the day trades made during the day,

    2.         The customer’s day-trading buying power will be limited to the equity in the customer’s account at the close of business of the previous day, less the maintenance margin required in paragraph (c) of this Rule, multiplied by two for equity securities, and

    3.         “time and tick” (i.e., calculating margin using each trade in the sequence that it is executed, using the highest open position during the day) may not be used.

    c.         Pattern day trader who fail to meet their special maintenance margin calls as required within five business days from the date the margin deficiency occurs will be permitted to execute transactions only on a cash available basis for 90 days or until the special maintenance margin call is met.

    d.         Pattern day traders are restricted from using the guaranteed account provision pursuant to paragraph (f)(4) of this Rule for meeting the requirements of paragraph (f)(8)(B).

    e.         Funds deposited into a pattern day trader account to meet the minimum equity or maintenance margin requirements of paragraph (f)(8)(B) of this Rule cannot be withdrawn for a minimum of two business days following the close of business on the day of deposit.

     

     

  •  03-28-2008, 2:30 PM 25916 in reply to 24855

    Re: SEC Pattern Day Trader Rules

    Reply Quote

    Can you perform 3 day trades with one broker and have a second trading account from a different broker and perfom 3 day trades as well? Would I get flag? Just wondering...

  •  03-28-2008, 4:22 PM 25925 in reply to 24651

    Re: SEC Pattern Day Trader Rules

    Reply Quote
    Okay, here's what I get so far:

    A) You NEED to have a margin account with more than $25k to perform more than 3 day trades in 5 days.

    B) If you don't have the above account (Margin AND $25k or over), your broker (in this case Zecco), will lock up the account (for 90 days?) or I'm guessing some other form of punishment ensues.

    C) A day trade is considered buying AND selling of the SAME stock in the SAME DAY.
        
    (so in other words if I buy a stock today and sell tomorrow it is not considered a day trade, also
          if I buy 4 DIFFERENT stocks today and sell them the same day, that is ALSO considered
          as 4 day trades and you are flagged as a day trader.)

    D) You also CAN perform more than 3 day trades within the 5 business days IF you have a cash account  HOWEVER, you would be         violating the Good faith and Free riding rules.

    What I don't get is:

    A) If I have (for example) a $1k CASH account and I buy (10 shares and $100 ea.) and sell them the same day (let's suppose I made 5% profit), does that mean that I can't use that $1,050 for a WHOLE 3 days?

    B) If I can't use that cash again, then I suppose I would need a margin account, correct?

    C) How do the good faith and the free riding rules work? Also, what happens if I break them?

  •  03-28-2008, 7:50 PM 25945 in reply to 25925

    Re: SEC Pattern Day Trader Rules

    Reply Quote

    lets get this straight first off, when you buy a stock on monday and sell it on tuesday, this is NOT a trade and the money you invested will not be in your account until friday! (T+3)

    if you buy a stock on monday and sell it on monday, this IS a day trade and the money you used WILL be back in your account the next morning (tuesday) ready to trade again

    There is no T+3 when you day trade

     

    now, what the hell is good faith rules?

  •  03-28-2008, 7:50 PM 25946 in reply to 25916

    Re: SEC Pattern Day Trader Rules

    Reply Quote
    pr_stormtrooper:

    Can you perform 3 day trades with one broker and have a second trading account from a different broker and perfom 3 day trades as well? Would I get flag? Just wondering...



    Yes, you can.  Even if all your accounts are with the same broker, it's ok too.  Just as long as you don't make more than 3 roundtrips within 5 business days in the same account, you won't be flagged.   The bottom line, each account is treated separately; therefore, even if you get flagged in one account, it won't affect the other ones.
  •  03-28-2008, 8:03 PM 25947 in reply to 25945

    Re: SEC Pattern Day Trader Rules

    Reply Quote
    Okay well I did a bit of light reading and I sorta got what the Good Faith and Free Ride rules stand for:
    Free Riding - When you buy and sell a stock without having the funding for it (i.e you bought a stock on Monday, then sold Tuesday, and on Tuesday you try to buy another stock and sell that one on Wednsday)

    Good Faith - When you buy a stock without having the funding, but once the 3 days is up you sell it once the money is in your account.

    This raises another question for me: If I buy a stock on Monday and sell it on Tuesday at 3:30 PM does that mean that the cash won't settle until Thursday at 3:30PM...or wait is it Friday? Hmmm
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