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Zecco.com » General Investing » ETF & Mutual Fund Investing » FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable f...
Last post 06-24-2009, 11:35 AM by aquaswim47. 11 replies.
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  •  06-22-2009, 11:13 PM 59342

    FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable for retail investors

    Reply Quote
    FINRA declares leveraged ETFs "complex" and "typically unsuitable for retail investors who plan to hold them for longer than one trading session."

    WSJ Online

    I wonder what affect will this have on brokers that let traders run wild with these things, ahem, Zecco?










  •  06-22-2009, 11:27 PM 59343 in reply to 59342

    Re: FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable for retail investors

    Reply Quote
    That's funny because Michiel has like 3X everything and this guy is like one of the guys running Zecco.  However, I think Zecco's clearinghouse deals with issues like this.  Not sure.
  •  06-23-2009, 12:16 AM 59352 in reply to 59342

    Re: FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable for retail investors

    Reply Quote
    Yeah, I also don't see any long-term logic behind these products.

    Aqua
  •  06-23-2009, 9:57 AM 59365 in reply to 59352

    Re: FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable for retail investors

    Reply Quote
    There is no long term theory behind the 3X vehicles. They arre made to churn on a daily basis. Brokers love them because they generate commissions like crazy.
  •  06-23-2009, 1:03 PM 59375 in reply to 59343

    Re: FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable for retail investors

    Reply Quote
    JeremyAlan:
    That's funny because Michiel has like 3X everything and this guy is like one of the guys running Zecco.  However, I think Zecco's clearinghouse deals with issues like this.  Not sure.


    First of all, as stated on my ZeccoShare profile:

    "Don't take any cues from what I'm doing people, as I'm on a wild gamble to recover my 2008 losses. Stay clear please."

    Secondly, the Zecco Trading account that I share on my ZeccoShare profile does not reflect anything else than my individual choices, and is disconnected from my work at Zecco.

  •  06-23-2009, 2:23 PM 59378 in reply to 59375

    Re: FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable for retail investors

    Reply Quote
    Good luck; try not to chase losses with more losses. I wish you well and hope you eventually make it back. Do it methodically and not in a rash manner. Really think thru each of your strategies.

    Aqua
  •  06-23-2009, 4:39 PM 59388 in reply to 59375

    Re: FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable for retail investors

    Reply Quote
    michiel:
    JeremyAlan:
    That's funny because Michiel has like 3X everything and this guy is like one of the guys running Zecco.  However, I think Zecco's clearinghouse deals with issues like this.  Not sure.


    First of all, as stated on my ZeccoShare profile:

    "Don't take any cues from what I'm doing people, as I'm on a wild gamble to recover my 2008 losses. Stay clear please."

    Secondly, the Zecco Trading account that I share on my ZeccoShare profile does not reflect anything else than my individual choices, and is disconnected from my work at Zecco.



    I have two questions:
    1--Is it working?
    2--Do you typically hold for 1 trading session or longer?
  •  06-23-2009, 5:46 PM 59398 in reply to 59388

    Re: FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable for retail investors

    Reply Quote
    Bloominonion:


    I have two questions:
    1--Is it working?
    2--Do you typically hold for 1 trading session or longer?


    In recent months I have focused on short-term trend trading. I actually changed the Trading Style as indicated on my ZeccoShare profile, as I really am more of a long-term buy and hold investor.

    Regarding the leveraged ETFs, I have mostly held these for several days. So far, I have been able to recoup some of my 2008 losses, but let me stress that the risk is significant. Swings of plus or minus 10% per day are very common.
     
    In the interest of transparency, you can check all my trades, holdings, as well as performance on my ZeccoShare profile.

    Please note that none of the information above constitutes a recommendation to enter in any securities transactions or to engage in any of the investment strategies presented. I say this explicitly as I am a Zecco Associate.

  •  06-23-2009, 6:29 PM 59399 in reply to 59375

    Re: FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable for retail investors

    Reply Quote
    Yeah, I kind of understand why they banned these 3X etfs from marging on this platform even though Zecco cost me about $1000 in doing so.  I have seen a few people get margin calls based on taking on excessive risk via these instruments.  All I was alluding to was that if associates are using these it isn't an edorsement of course, but the mention that banning them is not going to happen while the associates hold them.  I got screwed on the former thing I talked about, but I am sure associates have more pull than a little guy like me. 
  •  06-23-2009, 10:58 PM 59413 in reply to 59399

    Re: FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable for retail investors

    Reply Quote
    This is what levered ETF's produce in choppy markets like we have. Great if you are good with it, not so great if you hold for a while (speaking from experience).

    Day change
     1x   2x L   2x S   3x L   3xS 
    0 0
     $  100.00  $  100.00  $  100.00  $  100.00  $  100.00
    1 10%
     $  110.00  $  120.00  $    80.00  $  130.00  $    70.00
    2 -10%
     $    99.00  $    96.00  $    96.00  $    91.00  $    91.00
    3 10%
     $  108.90  $  115.20  $    76.80  $  118.30  $    63.70
    4 -10%
     $    98.01  $    92.16  $    92.16  $    82.81  $    82.81
    5 10%
     $  107.81  $  110.59  $    73.73  $  107.65  $    57.97
    6 -10%
     $    97.03  $    88.47  $    88.47  $    75.36  $    75.36
    7 10%
     $  106.73  $  106.17  $    70.78  $    97.96  $    52.75
    8 -10%
     $    96.06  $    84.93  $    84.93  $    68.57  $    68.57
    9 10%
     $  105.67  $  101.92  $    67.95  $    89.15  $    48.00
    10 -10%
     $    95.10  $    81.54  $    81.54  $    62.40  $    62.40
    11 10%
     $  104.61  $    97.84  $    65.23  $    81.12  $    43.68
    12 -10%
     $    94.15  $    78.28  $    78.28  $    56.79  $    56.79
    13 10%
     $  103.56  $    93.93  $    62.62  $    73.82  $    39.75
    14 -10%
     $    93.21  $    75.14  $    75.14  $    51.68  $    51.68
    15 10%
     $  102.53  $    90.17  $    60.12  $    67.18  $    36.17
    16 -10%
     $    92.27  $    72.14  $    72.14  $    47.03  $    47.03

    End result, over any period of these seasaws that we're having, is that your money erodes. SKF and UYG are BOTH negative for the year.

    I just shorted SKF today, and will be looking into pairs to add to that (probably DXD and DDM will be added tomorrow).
  •  06-24-2009, 4:20 AM 59429 in reply to 59413

    Re: FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable for retail investors

    Reply Quote
    lucasjkr:
    This is what levered ETF's produce in choppy markets like we have. Great if you are good with it, not so great if you hold for a while (speaking from experience).

    Day change
     1x   2x L   2x S   3x L   3xS 
    0 0
     $  100.00  $  100.00  $  100.00  $  100.00  $  100.00
    1 10%
     $  110.00  $  120.00  $    80.00  $  130.00  $    70.00
    2 -10%
     $    99.00  $    96.00  $    96.00  $    91.00  $    91.00
    3 10%
     $  108.90  $  115.20  $    76.80  $  118.30  $    63.70
    4 -10%
     $    98.01  $    92.16  $    92.16  $    82.81  $    82.81
    5 10%
     $  107.81  $  110.59  $    73.73  $  107.65  $    57.97
    6 -10%
     $    97.03  $    88.47  $    88.47  $    75.36  $    75.36
    7 10%
     $  106.73  $  106.17  $    70.78  $    97.96  $    52.75
    8 -10%
     $    96.06  $    84.93  $    84.93  $    68.57  $    68.57
    9 10%
     $  105.67  $  101.92  $    67.95  $    89.15  $    48.00
    10 -10%
     $    95.10  $    81.54  $    81.54  $    62.40  $    62.40
    11 10%
     $  104.61  $    97.84  $    65.23  $    81.12  $    43.68
    12 -10%
     $    94.15  $    78.28  $    78.28  $    56.79  $    56.79
    13 10%
     $  103.56  $    93.93  $    62.62  $    73.82  $    39.75
    14 -10%
     $    93.21  $    75.14  $    75.14  $    51.68  $    51.68
    15 10%
     $  102.53  $    90.17  $    60.12  $    67.18  $    36.17
    16 -10%
     $    92.27  $    72.14  $    72.14  $    47.03  $    47.03

    End result, over any period of these seasaws that we're having, is that your money erodes. SKF and UYG are BOTH negative for the year.

    I just shorted SKF today, and will be looking into pairs to add to that (probably DXD and DDM will be added tomorrow).


    Timing is everything.
  •  06-24-2009, 11:35 AM 59446 in reply to 59429

    Re: FINRA: Leveraged ETFs unsuitable for retail investors

    Reply Quote
    Trader Jack:
    lucasjkr:
    This is what levered ETF's produce in choppy markets like we have. Great if you are good with it, not so great if you hold for a while (speaking from experience).

    Day change
     1x   2x L   2x S   3x L   3xS 
    0 0
     $  100.00  $  100.00  $  100.00  $  100.00  $  100.00
    1 10%
     $  110.00  $  120.00  $    80.00  $  130.00  $    70.00
    2 -10%
     $    99.00  $    96.00  $    96.00  $    91.00  $    91.00
    3 10%
     $  108.90  $  115.20  $    76.80  $  118.30  $    63.70
    4 -10%
     $    98.01  $    92.16  $    92.16  $    82.81  $    82.81
    5 10%
     $  107.81  $  110.59  $    73.73  $  107.65  $    57.97
    6 -10%
     $    97.03  $    88.47  $    88.47  $    75.36  $    75.36
    7 10%
     $  106.73  $  106.17  $    70.78  $    97.96  $    52.75
    8 -10%
     $    96.06  $    84.93  $    84.93  $    68.57  $    68.57
    9 10%
     $  105.67  $  101.92  $    67.95  $    89.15  $    48.00
    10 -10%
     $    95.10  $    81.54  $    81.54  $    62.40  $    62.40
    11 10%
     $  104.61  $    97.84  $    65.23  $    81.12  $    43.68
    12 -10%
     $    94.15  $    78.28  $    78.28  $    56.79  $    56.79
    13 10%
     $  103.56  $    93.93  $    62.62  $    73.82  $    39.75
    14 -10%
     $    93.21  $    75.14  $    75.14  $    51.68  $    51.68
    15 10%
     $  102.53  $    90.17  $    60.12  $    67.18  $    36.17
    16 -10%
     $    92.27  $    72.14  $    72.14  $    47.03  $    47.03

    End result, over any period of these seasaws that we're having, is that your money erodes. SKF and UYG are BOTH negative for the year.

    I just shorted SKF today, and will be looking into pairs to add to that (probably DXD and DDM will be added tomorrow).


    Timing is everything.


    Yes, but if you read investing books, it is nearly impossible to time the market, thus trying to do so will be futile over the long-term.

    We are range-bound between 8,500 and 9,000. We think the market may head lower because the rate of change has been 0 as the rate of increase has been logarithmic (not exponential or linear). However, it is possible that it could change direction and creep higher. Fundamentals are more important than technicals; it is just than when we will perceive that we will have more normal fundamentals. This bubble bursting lasted 6-7 years more than we expected (i.e. 9-9.5 years instead of 2.5-3 years).

    Aqua
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