All content in the ZeccoShare community is generated by its members and does not contain advice or recommendations on behalf of Zecco Holdings or Zecco Trading. More>>
Content Name: CommunityDisclaimerShortLeftNav
Preview Revision #:
Active Revision #:
Edit Content
Last post 04-10-2008, 4:56 PM by fareastwarriors. 27 replies.
Page 1 of 2 (28 items)   1 2 Next >
Previous   Next
Content Name: ForumThreadInternal
Preview Revision #:
Active Revision #:
Edit Content
  •  11-20-2007, 3:42 PM 18350

    E*Trade - ETFC

    Reply Quote
    What do you guys think of buying into Etrade at the price it is now?

    I would think that it wont get too much lower than it is and eventually go up
  •  11-20-2007, 3:54 PM 18353 in reply to 18350

    Re: E*Trade - ETFC

    Reply Quote
    This one is tricky. I got in last week, at as low as 3.50 and assuming the stock got beaten too hard. My logic worked, as it went up again to around 6.00 but that joy was only short-lived. Now my gains have almost evaporated...
  •  11-20-2007, 4:10 PM 18354 in reply to 18353

    Re: E*Trade - ETFC

    Reply Quote
    I tried to get the bounce too but the chart brokedown intra-day and I got spooked out for a small loss.

    My feeling about financials in general, why try to catch a falling knife? No one really knows the true value of the securitized credit obligations, the value of the derivatives created to hedge them, and all the other malarkey on the balance sheets, or off-balance sheet that may need to be brought on.

    I think buying ETFC (and other financials) is tantamount to gambling, unless you truly understand the balance sheet, or plan to hold long-term (3 yrs. minimum). And if you do plan to hold long-term, why buy now?

    If ETFC can avoid bankruptcy, you have big upside. But, who knows if they will?

    http://www.20sinvestor.blogspot.com
    http://www.linkedin.com/in/rossgreenspan
  •  11-20-2007, 4:33 PM 18355 in reply to 18350

    Re: E*Trade - ETFC

    Reply Quote
    mrr1003:
    What do you guys think of buying into Etrade at the price it is now?

    I would think that it wont get too much lower than it is and eventually go up

    I think your exactly right ,even if all etrade mortgages bad . Its trading business worth more then  $4  .I Scaled in today  Hum  didn't  they buy from jpm , i wounder if ceo jpm is looking at it now ??
  •  11-20-2007, 5:04 PM 18362 in reply to 18350

    Re: E*Trade - ETFC

    Reply Quote
    To risky with the financial issues.  I bough it the day it went down after the rumors @ $4.90 then sold it the next day at $6.00.  Right now it'll prolly go back to $4.40 at most, unless buy out rumors reoccur.
  •  11-20-2007, 5:22 PM 18366 in reply to 18350

    Re: E*Trade - ETFC

    Reply Quote
    Im thinking of possibly selling it if it makes it up to 6.00 again, and maybe buying again if it drops down like it has twice in about a week
  •  11-21-2007, 3:44 AM 18389 in reply to 18366

    Re: E*Trade - ETFC

    Reply Quote
    So much of the news on E-Trade is purely guessing and speculation, I'd be prepared for a wild ride ahead!  
  •  11-21-2007, 10:09 AM 18396 in reply to 18350

    Re: E*Trade - ETFC

    Reply Quote

    mrr1003,

    When buying E-Trade the issue  you have to resolve is exactly how severe the housing downturn will be on the Companies financial posistion, primarily it's mortgage loan portfolio. Unfortunately, this quite critical task is far from simple. Despite its complexities we can make some general assumptions about  what could happen in order to gauge whether or not your are justified in a purchase.

    Below I have contained information regarding the composition of E-Trade Financials loan portfolio, which include its securities held for sale and its loans receivables. The information was retrieved from the Company's most recent 10-k.

    Loans Receivables, net are summarized as follows (dollars in thousands):

     

    December 31,     Variance  
         2006     2005     2006 vs. 2005  

    Real estate loans:

          

    One- to four-family

       $ 10,870,214     $ 7,091,664     53  %

    Home equity lines of credit (“HELOC”), Home equity installment loans (“HEIL”) and other

         11,809,008       8,106,820     46  %

    Consumer and other loans:

          

    Recreational vehicle

         2,292,356       2,692,055     (15 )%

    Marine

         651,764       752,645     (13 )%

    Commercial

         219,008       89,098     146  %

    Credit card

         128,583       188,600     (32 )%

    Automobile

         77,533       235,388     (67 )%

    Other

         3,706       8,338     (56 )%

    Unamortized premiums, net

         388,153       323,573     20  %

    Allowance for loan losses

         (67,628 )     (63,286 )   7  %
                      

    Total loans receivable, net

       $ 26,372,697     $ 19,424,895     36  %

     

     

    Available-for-sale securities are summarized as follows (dollars in thousands):

     

         December 31,    Variance  
         2006    2005    2006 vs. 2005  

    Mortgage-backed securities:

            

    Backed by U.S. government sponsored and Federal agencies

       $ 9,109,307    $ 9,427,521    (3 )%

    Collateralized mortgage obligations and other

         1,108,385      995,891    11  %
                    

    Total mortgage-backed securities

         10,217,692      10,423,412    (2 )%
                    

    Investment securities:

            

    Asset-backed securities

         2,161,728      1,365,754    58  %

    Publicly traded equity securities:

            

    Preferred stock

         458,674      288,365    59  %

    Corporate investments

         24,139      147,400    (84 )%

    FHLB stock

         244,212      198,700    23  %

    Other

         815,538      339,807    140  %
                    

    Total investment securities

         3,704,291      2,340,026    58  %
                    

    Total available-for-sale securities

       $ 13,921,983    $ 12,763,438    9  %
                    

     

    Unfortunetaly, E-Trade trade does not provide more comprehensive information on its mortgage loan portfolion, but we will try to work from this data. To my knowledege E-Trade primary problems are surrounding its asset-backed securities and CMO exposure. Therefore, let us tackle this first. Looking at the data we see that E-Trade's total asset-backed securities and CMO exposure is approximately $2.16 billion and $1.10 billion, respectively. Therefore, in a worse case scenario E-Trade Financial's maximum loss exposure related to such securities is capped at approximately $3.36 billion (this is under the assumption that they do not insure their portofolio. If they do their loss exposure will be less). E-Trade has approximately $4.20 billion in equity. Thus, if E-Trade were to write down the value of its entire asset-backed securities and CMO portfolio the Company's worse case scenario equity would fall to about $840 million, which is about $1.97/share. The companies average price to book multiple over the past ten years is about 2x (I exluded the abnormally high price/book mulitpe of 4.45x in 1999). Thus, if we accept this as E-Trade's fair price to book multiple the implied fair value price after a material write down would be about $3.94, which is about what the market values the Company at now. Therefore, it appears that the market is expecting E-Trade to face such a worse case scenario, or some combination that and increaseing losses on its real estate loans. I would argue, however, that such a worse case scenario while possible, is probably unlikely.  Perhaps a more reasonable situation is for E-Trade to write down approximately 60-80% of its asset-backed securites and CMO portfolio and to experience a increase in its loan loss reserves of about  0.30 to 0.50 basis points. Under this assumption E-Trade would could loose somewhere between $2.15-$2.85 billion in total equity, which would place total equity somewhere between $1.35-$2.05 biilion, or approximately $3.17-$4.81/share. This would imply fair value prices between $6.34-$9.62 using 2x book as the fair price multiple. Thus, assuming it takes about 5 years for everything to settle out and E-Trade to return to a normal status the implied compounded rate of return under these latter situations would be approximately 9.65% and 19.19%, repsectively (assuming a $4 purchase price). Therefore, while the returns have the potential to be compelling, I would argue that given the uncertaintly surrounding the issue the returns are not high enough to compensate one for the assumed risk. However, others may have a different opinion. After all things may not turn out as bad as I have suggested above. Also, I have not made any estimates for growth. If, for example, E-Trade returns to its normal 10yr compounded annual growth rate in book value of 13.37% in, say, 2009 and maintains that growth until 2012 total book value/share would approximate $4.62, $7.01 billion in each of two situations I discussed above. This would imply prices of $9.24, and $14.02 and equate compounded annual 5YR returns at 18.23% and 28.51%, respectively, which I think compensates one accordingly. 

    Angell       

     

     

     

     

     

     

    December 31,

     

     

     

     

    ****IGNORE THE INFORMATION BELOW****

     

      2006   2005   2004
        Cost Basis   Fair Value   Cost Basis   Fair Value   Cost Basis   Fair Value

    Mortgage-backed securities:

               

    Backed by U.S. Government sponsored and Federal Agencies

      $ 9,375,444   $ 9,109,307   $ 9,687,666   $ 9,427,521   $ 7,938,135   $ 7,793,207

    Collateralized mortgage obligations and other

        1,127,650     1,108,385     1,014,582     995,891     1,266,736     1,258,862
                                       

    Total mortgage-backed securities

        10,503,094     10,217,692     10,702,248     10,423,412     9,204,871     9,052,069
                                       

    Investment securities:

               

    Asset-backed securities

        2,163,538     2,161,728     1,376,315     1,365,754     2,789,471     2,796,429

    FHLB stock

        244,212     244,212     198,700     198,700     92,005     92,005

    Municipal bonds

        620,261     632,747     167,848     168,850     136,362     136,671

    Corporate bonds

        74,293     72,661     74,931     72,760